.png){kind=logo}
The Unscripted SEO Interview Podcast
Hosted by Jeremy Rivera: A 17 year career expert in the SEO industry. Get insights, action items and anecdotes from experts like Lilyray, Kevin Indig, Rand Fishkin, Matt Mellinger and more in the SEO industry, who are not only well-respected, but have really interesting stories to share. 100% unscripted, 100% unrehearsed, 100% unedited, and 100% real. Guaranteed to provide those golden nugget lightbulb moments.
The Unscripted SEO Interview Podcast
Owned Asset Optimization With Jonas Sickler
Curious about how a children's book illustrator transitions into a powerhouse in SEO? Jonas Sickler joins us to share his incredible journey in this unscripted interview and we learn about the creative pathways that led him to become an SEO expert at Terakeet.
You'll hear all about how he leveraged his artistic skills to understand the digital landscape and how the SEO game has evolved from keyword stuffing to creating valuable content assets that truly resonate with audiences. Jonas also introduces us to the intriguing concept of owned asset optimization, a strategy that can significantly elevate your brand's visibility across multiple channels.
Ever wondered how branded clicks can actually gauge your market authority? Jonas and I break down the dynamics between branded and non-branded search behaviors and why brand searches might just be the ultimate indicators of relevance. We also venture into the often-overlooked realm of broader business metrics, stressing the importance of looking beyond just rankings and traffic. Learn why metrics like revenue and conversions should be your new best friends in the world of SEO, and get tips on how to measure these outcomes effectively.
Forecasting SEO growth can be a tough nut to crack, but Jonas offers some invaluable insights into building accurate models. We discuss the importance of historical data, algorithm changes, and the balance between instant PPC results and long-term SEO benefits.
Our conversation highlights the necessity of collaboration and clear target-setting, especially when it comes to setting up PPC campaigns with efficient cost-per-acquisition targets. Whether you're a seasoned marketer or just getting started, this episode is packed with actionable insights to help you align your marketing strategies with your broader business goals.
Welcome to the Unscripted SEO Podcast with Jeremy Rivera. My special guest today is Jonas Sickler of Terrakete. There's no script. There's no pre-planned talking points. We're just going to have a conversation. I've known Jonas for a few years and we'll get into that, but don't expect anything super planned. But I love these conversations in SEO because people's experiences can go so deep and so wide. So let's start out with just kind of a fundamental who are you and what is it mostly that you do?
Speaker 2:Hey, good to be on the show, and right before a nice long vacation. So we're all kind of unwound and relaxed already and it's kind of wading into the waters of the 4th of July. So I have been. I had, just like everyone else in search, had a really wacky journey to get here Did not go to school for that obviously Started off as a children's book illustrator and worked my way through the illustration business as it went from analog to digital and then started to think about getting into something that was a bit more fixed and less sporadic.
Speaker 2:The illustration in the book industry can be very sort of go with the flow and I needed something a little more anchored, and so I already had a website for a portfolio and I was writing blog content, doing a lot of the things that I would normally do as an SEO, and so I kind of fell into that career and it made sense and I was able to exercise a lot of the same things that I loved as an illustrator, which was sort of problem solving, connecting with audiences and telling stories as an SEO, writing into content strategy and planning strategies the technical side of things, but mostly on like on page and internal linking and anchor tax and all that stuff never really got too deep into the super technical things.
Speaker 2:I always feel like that gets more towards a developer away from an SEO and there are some SEOs who are phenomenal at doing that and just get it and they get all the patents and everything. But I kind of stayed more to the on-page and the content side. And then now I've kind of pushed myself into a digital marketing analyst role where I kind of am more focused on understanding the holistic impact of search, all of the different things that SEO impacts beyond organic, and how can we better report on that, how can we understand it and how can we get brands on board with the idea that SEO is more than a single channel strategy.
Speaker 1:I think that's huge. First off, I do want to know do you have any books out there for my kids that I should, I should grab off the shelf first.
Speaker 2:Very. You know I did. The ones that I did were baby books and they're part of this line of books called the indestructibles, which are sort of a they. They have like a Tyvek material feel to them so you can like put them in the dishwasher. And somebody invented the concept and I came along with some art and they were like oh, you can do our next series. And there was a nursery rhyme series. So my books have no words, they're just. They were like do Mary had a little lamb and Humpty Dumpty and hey diddle diddle, and there were six of them all together and like, just do whatever you want, as long as you can kind of you know, convince us that what your art is doing is going to be in conjunction with the rhymes that people are going to tell. So I didn't have to worry about the writing aspect. But they were good, it was a hit and for anybody who's got little babies and stuff, they've sold millions and millions of copies around the world. So a cool accomplishment. But then it was time to move on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I feel like there are clients I have where some need just pictures to tell them the story, and I think that's an interesting aspect of SEO is communicating the value that we're bringing and also trying to move as an industry away from hyper-focusing on.
Speaker 1:I'm in SEO and so I change rankings and so all I care about is these keywords and did they go up in depth? You know, and moving from you know where I was at at Raven Tools as an SEO analyst and providing rank tracking, like we're like trying to move people away from myopically just trying to you know what's our position changes and get them to look at a bigger picture. It was very expensive for Raven Tools because they lost their rank tracking capability due to Google Armageddon, serpageddon for several SEO tools at the time. But I think as an industry, I feel like we have started to move away from just, you know, reporting impressions and click positions. What are the conversations you're having? That's connecting SEO as a bigger discipline, as part of the bigger picture and those larger values. What does that look like at your agency or in your department?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Terakeet was doing enterprise SEO for disruptive brands for quite a long time, and then we started moving up from there into the Fortune 1000, really more established brands and when we did that, we were realizing that we were creating content that was performing outside of the organic search channel and having bigger impact whether it was on the brand or on conversions and transactions and we weren't really capturing that full value. So we ended up taking a step back and thinking like how can we flip marketing on its head? How can we redefine what we're doing and what the industry like, where there are smart people that are doing some of this stuff already, but there wasn't a name for it. And so we said, well, let's launch a new category, and that category was owned asset optimization. And we did that about a year ago. And what? What the?
Speaker 2:The main point of it is, instead of being a channel first strategy, like SEO, owned asset optimization says let's take an asset first approach and so, considering all of the things that you create for your website as an asset, and then how can you use search data to understand your audience's needs to create those assets?
Speaker 2:Like we do a lot in SEO, we say, well, what are the keywords, what is the intent behind those keywords?
Speaker 2:How can we create a piece of content that solves that intent, but then also focusing on the broader user experience for that piece of content and the conversion rate optimization for it, and then taking into account all the different ways that traffic will come to that asset that you created, and then measuring the value of it that way and thinking about it more in terms of, like, long-term equity that it drives and that the fact that you might be running paid ads to it even.
Speaker 2:And so if you created that, created it as an asset for your brand, and now you're getting organic traffic, you're running paid to it, maybe you're running doing some social promotion for it and you're atomizing it in all these different ways, then you should be, you should be tracking the value that that assets, providing all the conversions from it, from all the different places that traffic arrives, because you you created it for it to solve the intent. So that was kind of like the sort of the main crux behind it, and then we can pause, talk about that, and then we can also talk about some of the measurements and things that we do beyond the normal SEO measurements.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'd love to talk more about metrics next, but I have been thinking since the algorithm leak. One of the things that jumped out to me is kind of a reinforcement that brand and click behavior are both, you know, individual drivers, like if you are doing things separately that increase the number of people that are searching for your brand. That has you know. There's always been kind of this idea, or I've had a workflow first.
Speaker 1:I'm guilty of it, of like I would go into the search console and say, oh, these are branded queries. We want to optimize non-branded queries, you know, and get more of those. But it's almost like you know, a representation of your strength and authority and perception of your authority and relevance in the marketplace in general is actually reflected in the diversity, depth and strength of those branded flicks, right? So it makes sense to look at what your assets are and where they're positioned and think about how to strengthen. You know, not just from a oh, I got a hyperlink so I rank better perspective, but from a bigger holistic picture, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I love that you kind of brought in that branded versus non-branded, because we do often get shoved in the corner and said, well, we already were. You know, people already knew about our brand, so we're already getting branded clicks. But if you're taking the asset first approach, you could then you then you're armed and you can say, well, that asset that's getting branded traffic didn't exist before we created it. So, yes, it's getting non-branded and it's getting branded traffic, but it didn't exist before our work. So we claim 100% of the value from that. Now you're doing other stuff elsewhere. We're not going to claim the branded traffic to the homepage because that already existed. But if you were to do conversion rate optimization on the homepage and you boosted two or three X in a conversion percentage, then you should be claiming some of that value.
Speaker 2:And that's sort of where, like, seo has always tiptoed into the idea of revenue and conversions, where it's been, like you know, we don't measure traffic, we don't measure rankings. We measure real hard business metrics like revenue. But user experience is generally gated around only the things that impact search performance and not things that might make the page a better overall experience beyond the search or it. You know conversion rate optimization is layered on sometimes by some people if the agency specializes in that, but it's usually not considered wrapped up in SEO. It's more like, well, we're going to put a CTA on the page, but there isn't the traditional testing that goes into improving conversions and doing X, y and Z to make sure that that worked and testing it. It's more focused on testing around things that will improve search performance and get more traffic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so let's close that circle and come to metrics. I love the idea of metrics and I've also been in an organization where we wasted literal months coming up with these OKRs and spent so much time and energy to try to communicate this information, to meet these fictionalized OKRs that were supposed to represent this business, and it was just all a phantom. You know, it was a huge waste of time and effort. So how do you look at metrics? What are the measurements and signals and how do you get them deployed and bring those fishing nets, separate the catch and say to ta-da, to the client in a way that actually impacts?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's the easiest thing in the world and it's also the hardest thing in the world at the same time, and I say that because I think the best metrics to use are the ones that are familiar to marketers and that are measurable across different channels and strategies. So if you're using similar metrics to show paid performance and SEO performance, it's okay that they're doing completely different things, but in order to measure sort of like the highest level outputs on those. So rather I think it's good to use things that are like key performance indicators for, you know, you say we've got. You know rankings are moving this way and impressions are moving that way, but those are just sort of like internal good to know for us, not reportable metrics. They're more like you know, are we doing things that are moving the needle in the right direction? But when it comes to the actual metrics, I think the OKR should be centered on things that can actually drive business results.
Speaker 2:I like to use ROAS, so return on ad spend, and that is something that can be seen as a paid PPC metric as well as an SEO metric, if there's fees going out to buy the placements based on the CPC, and also if there's agency fees involved, total fees and then the total revenue generated from them. Same thing if you're working with an SEO partner. What are all the fees that you're paying in a monthly contract and then what is the revenue coming out of that? You can calculate the return on ad spend from that without having to worry about the intricacies of how much time went into creating this asset or that asset. It's kind of a little tricky if the agency partner is more like here's an outline, go write the piece of content and then you, then you as a business have to put in a lot more time and effort and work to actually create the content. So I think that argument works better. If you're the type of an SEO partner that says we're going to hand you a fully developed written piece of content, you just have to paste it in and connect the links and you're kind of done. So it depends on how the partnership works. But ROAS is one, and then return on ad spend and then cost per acquisition. Cpa is another one. So that's an easily transferable. How much are you paying to get a customer across all of your marketing efforts, where you're measuring it? And then same thing with your SEO partnership. Are you doing it that way. I think those are the. Those are the two metrics that are most impactful and cross, you know, can use those across channels.
Speaker 2:The tricky part is, as a business, you have to know what is your lifetime customer value, because you can't just say, well, they, they came in and they they bought, let's say, a pair of contacts. If somebody comes to your website and buys a contact subscription, the first month is maybe $35. Well, you have to bake into that the lifetime value of that, and they're probably not buying one pair of contacts, they're probably subscribing. So how are you then attributing that monthly bill? How long are they with you as a customer? How much money do they spend in the future? It's harder with stuff like your Target store and somebody's going to buy stuff more randomly than it is with a subscription model. It makes it a lot easier. But you have to know the lifetime value of the customer and the number of conversions and the cost of traffic. And once you get all those numbers put together in a spreadsheet, then you can start playing with the data and making all these different calculations and collecting the same data from different sources so that you can compare each channel.
Speaker 1:I think that's so important because when you're doing conversion optimization, when you're doing even simple SEO forecasting, there's a temptation of like, oh, I've got this many keywords, this much traffic, it could convert at this percentage and this product is $10. But if you know that's agnostic of like, okay, if, do we have any data to say if they buy from us, once they're, you know that actually represents four or five purchases over their lifetime. You know that actually represents four or five purchases over their lifetime. Or how long does a subscription last, you know? Or are there multiple products that are usually, you know, cross sellable or upsellable?
Speaker 1:So I think that a lot of a lot of SEOs aren't having those conversations, aren't thinking through, and they're just looking at oh, I've got an e-commerce client, okay, well, you know that's a $10 conversion and not viewing, you know, not even recognizing okay, well, if we have their email and they go into a list, what is the percentage of email list users that end up making a purchase and how much is that average purchase over a lifetime? Like, all of those are additional metrics that you need to have a more, a deeper conversation with the client to understand, you know absolutely, and also understanding the, the business model at hand. Just this morning to the consultation and we've been creating content. They were hospitalists and they provided staffing for hospitals and so everything we wrote was to get hospitals to contact them. And in this morning's conversation the CEO was like well, we don't even make our money from the hospitals. We actually make it from the physicians who we provide and we partner with them to provide the services.
Speaker 1:I'm like wait, we've been focusing on getting the attention and group of people that aren't even actually the ones that you make the money off of. We've totally missed on all of the, you know, not exactly because they still need hospitals to agree to that job. You know, to give those jobs to those physicians. But that's a totally different marketing campaign to target the physicians involved versus targeting the hospitals who want to hire those physicians. So understanding the business model is so important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's where it does. It makes sense to have those decision makers in the room when these things are being hashed out. Sometimes I think a lot of times what happens is like information gets filtered down to somebody who's like you know, at some point some, some business objective gets filtered to the point where they're like hey, we need traffic, because in my head I know that if I have traffic and it does this stuff, then it means revenue. So then that person goes out well, how do I get traffic? I get go to an SEO person to get the traffic. And they might you know it might've gotten lost in translation as far as what the real goal was, and so there's a lot of speculation. And exactly that happens where you know the person, the CFO or the CEO is like well, wait a minute, like how are we profitable on this?
Speaker 2:And usually what happens is the person who's signs up and wants to bring on the SEO person we don't care about revenue, like it just needs traffic.
Speaker 2:But somebody does care about it somewhere.
Speaker 2:It's usually the, the, the, the person who's like the main point of contact, that might not realize that that there's other ways to kind of build the program out to be profitable if the right people get in the room from the very, very beginning and, to your point, earlier too, it can be really hard to understand what the value of a customer even is.
Speaker 2:I mean, in some models where you've got in the streaming industry, you've got your, I signed up and I pay a monthly subscription fee to get the streaming content. But then what about all the advertising revenue? If they're on a lower cost ad model where they're starting to see ads, well, now somebody's paying to get their ads in front of that person and the streamer is making more money off of the customer, potentially even than the subscription fee was the subscription fee was. So that has to get factored in. And that's another. How do you even figure out what the average dollar value attributable to a customer is for advertising revenue? And that might even cross over to websites like Target and Walmart that do those like oh well, we didn't have what you're looking for, but here's some more stuff you can get from another website. I mean, those are ads as well, so that stuff's really hard to track.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So as far as best practices for for SEOs who are wanting to take it to that next level, like, what's an action item today for you? Know their client in front of them, let's do it in-house. What's your advice for an in-house person? What's your advice for an agency slash freelance person? So let's say, if you're hired to do SEO on in-house, what's your action item, your SOP for connecting those dots?
Speaker 2:I think the in-house teams have one have an advantage and a drawback. Their advantage is that they have access to probably a lot of the data and the information that normally a partner might not gain access to for confidentiality reasons. Especially with really big companies, publicly traded companies, there might be some heavier restrictions. Internal teams can get a lot of that data maybe all of it but they're also often hamstrung and short staffed to be able to scale things to the level needed. But they're able to collect all the data to be able to make the case and I think because of that, if they're able to assemble all those data points and start thinking like a business analyst before they start thinking like an SEO, what are all the data points and start thinking like a business analyst before they start thinking like an SEO? How can I, you know what, what are the all the data points that I need in order to make the case for SEO? And and I see, like in, you know, slack, chats and channels all over the place in the SEO community there's a lot of people that are like how do I convince the CEO, how do I convince you know that, my boss that we need to do this? And they always come back to just no, no, we don't want to launch a blog, we just want more traffic to this page, and I think that there's sort of a misunderstanding about how traffic actually works sometimes, where it's not just like.
Speaker 2:An SEO can't create demand and interest out of nothing. It has to exist and there has to be enough keywords and search volume. So I think the more data that you can come armed with and say here's the here's the total addressable market we have before us and here's the sections of the website that we can, that we can get traffic to, and here's how much it'll cost, and if you're able to build out strong business models using like Google sheets or whatever Excel say. Tom Critchlow is reallylow, has a really good information about that in his SEO MBA course. Definitely check that stuff out, because he's poxed through the idea of how do you build a model that says like, if our conversion rate is this and our traffic is this, our leads are this, what is the value of a conversion at each point?
Speaker 2:You know you might. If you're a lead gen site, it might be well, you're generating leads at 5%, but then only 5% of those actually convert into a sale. So you have to account for all those so that you can build that into your model and then be able to calculate out what's possible. Then, once you know what's possible, then you can kind of make the case and say, well, here's what it looks like in condition one and condition two, if we invest in seo versus a paid channel, and how can we like bring some more efficiency to the paid channel and then move some of those investments over to seo so that way you can have one channel that is sustainable and can continue to run, while the other one can be turned on and off if budget needs are tightened up.
Speaker 1:So what's your experience with because I've done two sides of like the concept of forecasting and one model looks at oh hey, this is the existing traffic and how we're doing here.
Speaker 1:Can you model out and create a sheet, that increase that shows what a 5% increase or a 10% increase would mean, versus looking at those opportunity universes of like taking a cluster of keywords that shows the search volume and then, based off of organic click-through rate, making an estimate of potential traffic and then trying to quantify, okay, out of that universe of potential traffic, that means this many conversions, that means this many sales, that means this much revenue. What are, you know, how do you quantify? Once you, if you do build that universe, how do you keep that within the realm of sanity of like, okay, out of that cluster of keywords, how can I predict or project accurately of how much of that pie I get to eat versus the more sustainable like? Oh well, you know, this is what it would look like if we got a 10% increase. Let's go for that. You know there are two ROI predictions. How do you handle those differentials when it comes to building these assets?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm glad you said pie, first of all, because 4th of July is a pie holiday for me anyways. Yeah, it is actually super, super hard to do with accuracy and I think that's why there aren't tools out there that are like oh, I built this model, here you go, it's free, go use it. Tools out there that are like oh, I built this model, here you go, it's free, go use it. Because we built one and it took a load of time and what went into it was we had to build an algorithm that was trained on our historical five years of our historical performance as an SEO partner for our customers. So how did we? How did we perform personally using our strategies on our customers? And then it takes into account I don't remember that, maybe it's like six months, I think of that cost that potential customers historical performance from the domain perspective. So before we start working with them, did they? How were they projected to grow? How were they growing? Did they get hit by algorithms? If you know if yes or no there are, then that gets factored into the model, because you know that means you know it's harder to get lift if they are getting clobbered by algorithms and if they weren't growing very well versus somebody that already is growing well. So all those things have to get factored in and I think there's.
Speaker 2:It always ends up like I think you can build it in a in a simpler way that says like based on the history of of my own work, I know that I will be likely to produce, you know, a certain percentage of of either if you're doing a traffic model or if you're going to do a conversion model, I can produce X percent of the total traffic value. You know you might say if, if we, even if we ranked number one, we're not going to get 30% click through on every single keyword we target. That's just impossible. You probably will never rank number one for every keyword, correct? So you have to figure out what that governor is and say like here's the entire pool of everything and based on this entire pool of opportunity, we think we're going to get like 2% at the most, which is still if your pool is big enough, that's still a really big number on the output.
Speaker 2:Then the harder part is kind of building that out and saying when, like building that curve that says in 12 months you're going to be here in, in in 12, in six months and 18 months, like what is the trajectory that you can expect and when will you break even on contract pricing? And then the cumulative contract pricing that adds up versus the cumulative revenue that stacks up, like when do those lines cross each other? And so that you say this is when you become profitable. And then here's where you 2X, 3x and 4X the contract pricing and that long-term, because it really SEO is the long-term game and it will continue to grow and continue to build equity. That's the beauty of it, so that you can kind of the nice thing about those lines is that you can.
Speaker 2:With PPC you kind of hit a plateau where you just can't. If you get more traffic, your conversions go down because you're buying inefficient traffic. But with search you continue to see the traffic growth and you continue to see sort of the Delta between the contract price and the value of the traffic grow and at some point, you know the, the, the program, just becomes so efficient that not it outstripe, outpaces everything else.
Speaker 1:That's, that's, that's great. Let's just say that that's great, a great way to look at it. Because there is that you know I also have set up and I'm setting up PPC campaigns here and there profit margin for this set of products and services so that when we do that goal cost per acquisition, we're not overspending to acquire any one specific lead. And how many leads does it take to actually convert that person? That's going to pay to re-strip the airport that you wanted to work in with an asshole. But it seems like those conversations are less, a lot less likely to happen.
Speaker 1:On the seo side. You know there's just like oh well, you know, we got a services page, we'll make a service page. Okay, well, out of that service, like how, how big, what is the follow-through of those additional, like next steps, like thinking about those pieces just seems to fall to the wayside. I think contrasting those two and thinking about, like comparing the instant input, instant output of ppc versus the, the long-term upscale potential of SEO, is kind of the holy grail, right, like we want to be able to do that. But I think those things that you've been pointing to as solid metrics we need to get there as an industry more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there's always this sort of it's like a battle between the PPC and the SEO teams. Because if it's really bad if there's an external agency running the PPC program because they're often paid by the size of the budget and so they want to grow that as big as possible, as long as it stays positive ROI and the SEO team, if we can work together, especially with an internal PPC team, and really coordinate on what keywords are being purchased, if we can work together, especially with an internal PPC team, and really coordinate on what keywords are being purchased. And it needs the. I think the overall mindset needs to shift away from like what conversions are the SEO team responsible for versus what conversions are the PPC team responsible for, and start thinking how can we collectively work together to get the most value, deliver the most, the most customers and the most revenue at the lowest CPA possible, and do that by coordinating like we're. It's going to take us six months to get to a traffic driving position on this keyword. Run PPC to that If it's a valuable keyword. When we get to that position, when we get to like two, one, two, three, then pull back that PPC investment on it, even if it's your most valuable. You know, paid keyword. It's okay, because now we're going to be getting that traffic through organic. Now let's.
Speaker 2:But what else do you have? What else can you run the PPC on? And also, like, do you really need to be buying branded keywords? You know if you're already ranking and if it's a especially if it's, like you know, a branded thing that's going to return your homepage with site links. If those are, if you've got good site links and your money pages are pulled into the site links, then don't buy those branded keywords, put the money somewhere else. But if your site links are not pulling in, you know your get a quote page or something or you don't like the way Google's changing the word. There's nothing you can do to make it better. Then you might justify buying the keywords to get the better wording, the better pages pulled in. So it's really a discussion and, I think, a collaboration between the paid and the SEO teams to kind of work together, be agile, move, budget in and out and always think about efficiently driving leads together as a performance arm of the company.
Speaker 1:So, wrapping it up, what's your one thing? That somebody should step away, close this podcast and go do immediately.
Speaker 2:I think if there's one thing that I would love folks to do, that would be to start at least thinking about, and maybe even start trying to articulate, the value of each of your assets on your website, your customer's website, and think about it in terms of an asset rather than a channel, so that you're not just locked into the idea of SEO non-branded organic traffic but rather here's an asset we created to solve a need. And what are all the keywords that are driving to it? Branded and non-branded, ppc, social media, email, organic search, whatever. However, people are getting to that.
Speaker 2:If you created it because you were trying to meet a need through organic search, then claim all that value and calculate the revenue and the conversions off of it and don't be shy, don't be afraid to say well, I can only report on the organic stuff. I think we need to step forwards and work together to change the mindset of the industry and start thinking bigger about the value that SEO provides, and that also includes the branded side in the search results as well, especially in the AI world, where the generative AI is going to return results based on what it discovers. So the more optimizing we can do and the more thinking through the lens of SEO and optimizing everything that you've got online, either on your website or on other satellite, third-party websites and business profiles. Think about it all together collectively so that we can kind of elevate the influence that SEOs have in the industry and marketing.
Speaker 1:I love that. Thank you so much for your time. It's a fantastic conversation. If there's anything you want to pitch, what are you working on? What do you want people to go discover and find?
Speaker 2:I'd say go check out owned asset optimization search that poke around. There's a lot of good information out there. I think it'll. I think it'll make a difference and go eat some pie and enjoy the fourth, or or I hope you already had some, if this comes out long afterwards.
Speaker 1:Definitely All right. Thank you so much, Jonas. See you later. Bye.
